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Krugman in The New York Times

Biscuit's picture

Okay - right up front - Krugman leans left, that's for sure.  I don't always agree with him - maybe 50/50.  But this was an interesting OPED, I thought, specifically for the last couple of paragraphs, because it clearly articulates why, for me, the McCain campaigns latest gambit of saturating the media with outrageous claims bothers me so much and is pushing me much more firmly into the Obama camp. 


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/12/opinion/12krugman.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin


The part that I find very very noteworthy in this article is this part, but please read the entire article first so you get the context:


"I’m talking, instead, about the relationship between the character of a campaign and that of the administration that follows. Thus, the deceptive and dishonest 2000 Bush-Cheney campaign provided an all-too-revealing preview of things to come. In fact, my early suspicion that we were being misled about the threat from Iraq came from the way the political tactics being used to sell the war resembled the tactics that had earlier been used to sell the Bush tax cuts.


And now the team that hopes to form the next administration is running a campaign that makes Bush-Cheney 2000 look like something out of a civics class. What does that say about how that team would run the country?


What it says, I’d argue, is that the Obama campaign is wrong to suggest that a McCain-Palin administration would just be a continuation of Bush-Cheney. If the way John McCain and Sarah Palin are campaigning is any indication, it would be much, much worse"


Statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception.
- Mark Twain

"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."  - George Bernard Shaw

Biscuit's picture

(post #50852, reply #1 of 48)

Oops! SORRY!  That's from the New York TIMES not the Washington Post!  Sorry!  Maybe I can get an elf to clean that up for me...

Statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception.
- Mark Twain

"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."  - George Bernard Shaw

Ruth's picture

(post #50852, reply #14 of 48)

Your first wish (for a title change to this thread) has been granted, and we'll have to limit it at that. We don't want to go over budget with elf interventions.


 

samchang's picture

(post #50852, reply #15 of 48)

Elves work for a fee?

Ruth's picture

(post #50852, reply #16 of 48)

not usually. most elves are not employed by corporations.

kathymcmo's picture

(post #50852, reply #31 of 48)

And it's their offseason, right? (Although Christmas is only 102 shopping days away, maybe they are back at it already?)

Biscuit's picture

(post #50852, reply #17 of 48)

(G) Thanks!  I knew I could count on the friendly elves!

Statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception.
- Mark Twain

"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."  - George Bernard Shaw

MadMom's picture

(post #50852, reply #2 of 48)

Excellent article, and as I've said before, anyone with an internet connection can easily tell truth from fiction, but how many people bother.  Whether you support McCain or Obama, you hear a lie you want to believe, and that's the end of it.  An informed voter should check.  And thank you for providing information, rather than just accusations.



Not One More Day!
Not One More Dime! Not One More Life! Not One More Lie!

End the Occupation of Iraq -- Bring the Troops Home Now!

And Take Care of Them When They Get Here!

Napie's picture

(post #50852, reply #3 of 48)

Why oh why do you persist in wishing for something that will NEVER EVER HAPPEN in American politics?  We do not have a civil political process and we should not want one, it helps sort out the ones who are tough enough for the job.  Outrageous statements and claims are what our system is all about; it is a full contact sport, period.  In fact it is so much more civilized now than it has ever been and I’m not sure I like it.  If your guy is getting the sharp end of the stick then he needs to man up and get tough.  I don’t think I really want a guy who can’t handle himself in a fight as my leader.  


Let the voter be informed and make his own mind up.

MadMom's picture

(post #50852, reply #4 of 48)

I have absolutely no problem with people being tough, as long as the voter is INFORMED!  That is the key.  If the voter finds out their candidate is spreading lies, and they don't care, shame on them.  If the voter finds out that both candidates are spreading lies, then they perhaps need to second guess their choice...maybe picking the lesser of two evils.  The lies are simply not acceptable to me; perhaps they are to you, perhaps they always have been there.  That doesn't mean I have to like them.



Not One More Day!
Not One More Dime! Not One More Life! Not One More Lie!

End the Occupation of Iraq -- Bring the Troops Home Now!

And Take Care of Them When They Get Here!

Marie Louise's picture

(post #50852, reply #5 of 48)

I actually agree with you. Well, partly. I do want to see a leader be tough. Clinton certainly toughened up Obama-remember when Dowd used to call him Obambi?

But Krugman is right. We've seen what happens when you elect people who are skilled liars. And I don't care to see it again in my lifetime.

Last night's forum about service was much more my speed. We don't need some blustering bully who would threaten to invade Russia, we need someone who can skillfully articulate why they need to stop doing whatever it is they are doing so we don't have to.

thecooktoo's picture

(post #50852, reply #6 of 48)

Who threatened to invade Russia...what did I miss?


Jim

MadMom's picture

(post #50852, reply #7 of 48)

That was one of the questions that Sarah Palin ignored during the interview last night.  She kept saying that Georgia should be part of NATO, in spite of a requirement that we would be obligated to defend them against Russia.  Listen to the interview again. 



Not One More Day!
Not One More Dime! Not One More Life! Not One More Lie!

End the Occupation of Iraq -- Bring the Troops Home Now!

And Take Care of Them When They Get Here!

thecooktoo's picture

(post #50852, reply #8 of 48)

But she is absolutely right, where is the misstatement.


Jim

MadMom's picture

(post #50852, reply #9 of 48)

The misstatement was her refusal to answer the question.  Either we support Georgia's entry into NATO, in which case, we are honor (haha) bound to join them if they are invaded by another country, or we don't.  She kept on babbling about how you could see Russia from Alaska.  Well, Bush claimed he could see Putin's heart, and see how much good that did us?  Same response when asked about supporting Isreal if they invaded Iran.  "We shouldn't second guess" Isreal's motives or actions.  That wasn't the question.  The question was whether we would support them or not.  I'm not running for VP, and don't know what the answer is, but as my DH pointed out, it would have been better to say "I cannot comment on a hypothetical question" rather than to evade the question. 



Not One More Day!
Not One More Dime! Not One More Life! Not One More Lie!

End the Occupation of Iraq -- Bring the Troops Home Now!

And Take Care of Them When They Get Here!

smslaw's picture

(post #50852, reply #12 of 48)

I think the problem is that she seemed to ignore the question of whether Georgia should be admitted to NATO.  She is correct in that I believe the NATO treaty would require a military response from NATO (i.e. USA) if Russia were to occupy Georgia once Georgia was admitted to NATO.


There should be a lot more debate about whether it is in the national interest of the USA to admit Georgia and others into NATO. Going to war to defend Canada is one thing, Georgia, quite another.


 

Marie Louise's picture

(post #50852, reply #11 of 48)

It's right here Jim. She says, "Perhaps so" when asked if we would have to invade Russia. As this commentator states, no sane politician would escalate things by saying such a thing.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ilan-goldenberg/palins-dangerous-saber-ra_b_125812.html

She also parroted Obama's position about going into Pakistan-which McCain recently mocked and called "naive"-so it just makes you wonder. If McCain can't coordinate his own campaign, how the hell is he going to manage the country?

thecooktoo's picture

(post #50852, reply #18 of 48)

And she was right, if Georgia is admitted to NATO, then we, BY INTERNATIONAL TREATY, have to come to the aid of any member under attack from any outside source.  How did she parrot Obama... he said was that he would attack across Pakistans borders without permission from the Pakistan government.  NOW THAT'S REALLY STUPID!  Even GWB isn't stupid enough to do that, you can't invade the territory of your allies without their permission. No way, no how, no time.  And Obama's statement is the textbook definition of naive.


Jim

roz's picture

(post #50852, reply #19 of 48)

"Even GWB isn't stupid enough to do that, you can't invade the territory of your allies without their permission. No way, no how, no time."

So, Pakistan is no longer a 'friend'?

http://tinyurl.com/create.php

Be impeccable with your word. Don't take anything personally. Don't make assumptions. Do your best. Don Miguel Ruiz
thecooktoo's picture

(post #50852, reply #20 of 48)

WWWhhhhaaaaatttt?

MadMom's picture

(post #50852, reply #21 of 48)

But Bush has been doing exactly that.  Are you saying he's wrong?



Not One More Day!
Not One More Dime! Not One More Life! Not One More Lie!

End the Occupation of Iraq -- Bring the Troops Home Now!

And Take Care of Them When They Get Here!

thecooktoo's picture

(post #50852, reply #26 of 48)

Bush is invading Pakistan...I don't think so.  Yeh, a few incursions  over the border with pilotless aircraft, but troops, no.  Only Mexico sends theirs into Texas and Arizona and gets away with it.


Jim

MadMom's picture

(post #50852, reply #28 of 48)

I don't think Special Forces is just pilotless aircraft.  You need to get up to date.  Our president is, in fact, going into Pakistan.  He did agree to notify the government after the fact, but said that under no circumstances would he ask for permission.  You may agree or disagree with that, but you cannot ignore it.


And yes, George Bush is even more stupid than we give him credit for!




Not One More Day!
Not One More Dime! Not One More Life! Not One More Lie!

End the Occupation of Iraq -- Bring the Troops Home Now!

And Take Care of Them When They Get Here!
thecooktoo's picture

(post #50852, reply #32 of 48)

 I truly apologize.  Was on the road for the past two weeks and apparently did not keep up adequately with my news watching and reading.  If it happened more than two weeks ago, guess I was just stupid.


Jim

MadMom's picture

(post #50852, reply #33 of 48)

Heaven knows, Jim, that you're not stupid.  I sometimes think our president is, but that's another discussion!  BTW, thanks for the apology.  We (on both sides) often forget to do that, preferring to think we were right all along, and I know we never are. 



Not One More Day!
Not One More Dime! Not One More Life! Not One More Lie!

End the Occupation of Iraq -- Bring the Troops Home Now!

And Take Care of Them When They Get Here!

ashleyd's picture

(post #50852, reply #34 of 48)

preferring to think we were right all along


Like with ballot "fraud" in Ohio?



Age is unimportant unless you’re a cheese.

Age is unimportant unless you’re a cheese.

Biscuit's picture

(post #50852, reply #35 of 48)

Get your quote straight.  I never EVER said ballot fraud.  I said, and I quote, "borderline voter fraud".  I'm sorry, Ashley, if the word "borderline" isn't in your particular dictionary that you may not know what it means.


And you want to know what's wrong with me?  I'll tell you.  First, I don't get hysterical - I spent 15 years in the military, and was raised by a Marine; "hysterical" hasn't been in my makeup since I was born.  Righteous indignation - yes.  Passionate about what I perceive is right and wrong?  Absolutely, got that from my Dad.  A healthy dislike for what I perceive is slick and slimy and dishonest?  Proud of it.


Hysterical?  (lol)  That's funny.  I get snarky, I get pissy, I get furious - I don't do hysterical.  That's for little girls.  And yes, I find the term "hysterical" insulting and demeaning.  The fact that you can't even acknowledge that your condescending, arrogant attitude toward me or toward something that I consider important (like borderline voter fraud - something legal but WRONG) MIGHT possibly be considered demeaning and insulting, shows how closed-minded you are.


If you feel so self-righteous and somehow have convinced yourself that I owe YOU an apology, you can hold your breath - because on the contrary - you owe ME one.


For the record, when you call any woman "hysterical", most of us - not all - but MOST of us consider that demeaning.  And if you think slipping and sliding around voter registration is nothing, then there isn't anything wrong with me - there's something wrong with YOU.


Now you can snipe and snark and make fun of me all you like.  I don't particularly care anymore.  I'm done being condescended to by you.  I used to pass it off as your British sense of humor and thought it was funny; it's not funny anymore, especially since I have NEVER insulted you or made fun of things YOU find important.


Statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception.
- Mark Twain

"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."  - George Bernard Shaw

ashleyd's picture

(post #50852, reply #36 of 48)

If we're putting the record straight I never called you hysterical, it's what you said I'd called you, although quite why you'd make that up I don't know. Whether its voter fraud, ballot fraud, borderline or full on, whatever, no need to split hairs, I still do not understand what your gripe is with this thing, it just looks like a mistake. What could the McCain campaign gain from it? Do you know something I don't about it? So either I am being incredibly stupid or you are being well over-sensitive. I can only put it down to a severe case of election fever and I hope you're back to normal soon.


Age is unimportant unless you’re a cheese.

Age is unimportant unless you’re a cheese.

Biscuit's picture

(post #50852, reply #37 of 48)

Oh, I do apologize! [she said with sarcasm...]


You don't think THIS is arrogant and condescending???


From: 
ashleyd   
Sep-12 10:15 am 

To: 
Biscuit
 (23 of 41) 

 
41592.23 in reply to 41592.1 

You really do get wound up over nothing nowadays. How can they do this? Because it's legal. Why do they do it? Because it gets the support voting. What did they do wrong? Put a stupid box on it that was unnecessary. What is your problem? I really have no idea.


Statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception.
- Mark Twain

"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."  - George Bernard Shaw

Biscuit's picture

(post #50852, reply #38 of 48)

You know what?  It's doesn't matter. Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.


Election fever?  No.  Nor is it PMS [she growled...].  104 degree temp?  Yes.  Sweaty, dizzy, fever and chills?  Yes.  Husband away again on military business?  Yes.  Election fever?  hardly.


Edited to say:  I will apologize for one thing - you didn't use the word "hysterical" - someone else did in response to what you said and I got the two mixed up, so for THAT I admit I was wrong in attributing it to you and for that I apologize. 



Statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception.
- Mark Twain


Edited 9/13/2008 10:40 am ET by Biscuit

"When a stupid man is doing something he is ashamed of, he always declares that it is his duty."  - George Bernard Shaw

ashleyd's picture

(post #50852, reply #39 of 48)

It's because I honestly don't see what's wrong, if somebody wouldn't mind explaining then I'll happily retract and apologise.


Age is unimportant unless you’re a cheese.

Age is unimportant unless you’re a cheese.