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"Intelligent Design:

StevenHB's picture

I haven't been around much lately and it's, sadly, likely to stay that way.


This morning I read the feature article in this week's Time or was it Newsweek talking about the "debate" about teaching "Intelligent Design" alongside evolution in American classrooms.  The President of the United States recently expressed support for the teaching of this religion-masquerading-as-science!


Clearly my values are significantly different than many, many other Americans'.  I can hardly believe that people are talking about such utter bullsh1t in the 21st century.  No wonder our high school students compare so unfavorably with those from other countries.


Thoughts?


Discuss, please.



Without coffee, chocolate, and beer, in that order, life as we know it would not be possible

Without coffee, chocolate, and beer, in that order, life as we know it would not be possible
diddidit's picture

(post #43929, reply #197 of 266)

>Which is why I dispute banning ID from the classroom. In my opinion, that is as wrong as a theist being unwilling to review data that disputes their assumptions on the nature of the universe.

That would be lovely had ID ever actually produced any data. Evolution isn't an assumption - it's a theory, one of the best-supported theories in science. To supplant it, any competing theory would have to show better support.

did

AmyElliesMom's picture

(post #43929, reply #134 of 266)

Exactly. I think it dimishes faith to try to "prove" it. If a person with faith is "attacked" by someone asking them to "prove" God exists, the correct answer (to me) is "I don't have to. I have FAITH God exists. Proof is not needed." Personally, I'm unsure, but I lean toward there being some sort of godly/godessly being. But I never ask someone to prove their own faith. That's just silly. It's like trying to prove that blue isn't green!

Too bad the only people who know how to run the country are busy driving cabs and cutting hair. ~ George Burns

 

Save the Earth! It's the only planet with wine and chocolate.

JoeB2's picture

(post #43929, reply #107 of 266)

>The fact that we don't have a full fossil record of every evolutionary change doesn't prove that evolution is wrong - it just means that we're missing evidence that may be supportive of or contradictory to the prevailing theory. Evolution would predict that as new fossils are found, that they will continue to demonstrate the gradual evolution of species.

True, it does not. But that lack of *critical* data does not stop us from talking about it. Even if it is the best available theory around, that doesn't make it true by default. However, how often do you see the ape->>man evolution icon displayed and taught as a monolithic truth? Every scientist knows that icon is pure fiction, based on hard data.

StevenHB's picture

(post #43929, reply #111 of 266)

However, how often do you see the ape->>man evolution icon displayed and taught as a monolithic truth? Every scientist knows that icon is pure fiction, based on hard data.


I disagree with your assertion that, "Every scientist knows that icon is pure fiction, based on hard data." This is a place where, as far as I know, we have an incomplete fossil record.  Again, this doesn't disprove the general belief that some ape-like species evolved into homo sapiens as we know him.  What is the "hard data" to which you refer?  If it were to exist, and strongly contradicted the evolution of some ancestral primate into homo sapiens, either evolution would have to be modified as a theory or we'd have to look for some other evolutionary path.



Without coffee, chocolate, and beer, in that order, life as we know it would not be possible

Without coffee, chocolate, and beer, in that order, life as we know it would not be possible
Fledge's picture

(post #43929, reply #112 of 266)

Intelligent Discussion


I like it.


 


What a dream I had
Pressed in organdy.......

You don't scare me

I have an African Grey

JoeB2's picture

(post #43929, reply #127 of 266)

>What is the "hard data" to which you refer?

Sorry, I'm being [typically] unclear. I meant the lack thereof. Namely, the pointed absence of transitional examples that would substantiate macro evolution, which is what the icon boasts.

StevenHB's picture

(post #43929, reply #132 of 266)

the pointed absence of transitional examples that would substantiate macro evolution, which is what the icon boasts.

 There are many examples of transitional fossils; however, no matter how many points one has along a line, there are always gaps between the points.  Religious critics of evolution are always pointing at the gaps even when there are enough points to make the pattern clear.  The existence of gaps doesn't disprove evolution - it just says that if more fossils are found, we'd expect them to fit in the gaps.


Without coffee, chocolate, and beer, in that order, life as we know it would not be possible

Without coffee, chocolate, and beer, in that order, life as we know it would not be possible
Al1's picture

(post #43929, reply #24 of 266)

President Bush is living proof of the absence of intelligent design.

Wolvie's picture

(post #43929, reply #25 of 266)

I agree with you. Unbelievable.


I can't believe that some religious folks can't reconcile how evolution and their religion don't necessarily have to be at odds. This is just more of the dumbing down of America that Rove advocates - you know -  his statement that the more education you get, the less you vote Republican. Sad. Which leads to how sad it is that politics in this country and others have been hijacked. Fanatics on the rise all around the globe now, it seems.


Edited to say: should have read the entire thread, samchang, Jean, and others stated it better. :-)



How clever you are my dear, you never mean a single thing you say


Oscar Wilde 






 


Edited 8/12/2005 7:12 am ET by Wolvie

 

CookiM0nster's picture

(post #43929, reply #41 of 266)

If you want to understand how creationism was created, I highly recommend this book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0520083938/qid=1123880275/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/103-1155071-5809421?v=glance&s=books

shywoodlandcreature's picture

(post #43929, reply #42 of 266)

I love his name - Ronald Numbers - couldn't be anything but a science historian (or possibly an accountant).





"...very little has ever been accomplished by complacent people." Billmon


http://costofwar.com/

MadMom's picture

(post #43929, reply #43 of 266)

I love the term "scientific creationism."  Talk about an oxymoron.



Not One More Day!
Not One More Dime! Not One More Life! Not One More Lie!

End the Occupation of Iraq -- Bring the Troops Home Now!

And Take Care of Them When They Get Here!

CHandGreeson's picture

(post #43929, reply #67 of 266)

I have tried to respond to this several times and stopped myself, and honestly, I haven't read all the responses in the middle. Now that I have already jumped in:

This makes me really sad, too. I am a church-going, Sunday-school teaching Science teacher - elementary school level, mostly ecology/earth science. I can't tell you how many people on each side look at me like I have 3 heads. Why can't you just believe both?!

What really offends my sensibilties is that the arguement re: evolution from the Christian side does nothing to help real people right now. How does spending all our time aruging over whether God's day is 24 hours or 24,000 years change how we treat our neighbors, feed the hungry, house the homeless?

Oh, maybe that is the point? Maybe the Christian far-rights want us to be distracted?

At any rate, I am sticking to my guns: Creation is amazing, it's ever-changing and remarkable. It's too complex to assume anything other than the facts we can read from it: ancient, evolving, grand - and we are neither the end nor the pinnacle. And, as a Christian, my second duty is to love my neighbor and care for the people of this world.

Well, ya'll know a lot more about me than I ever expected :)

~~Jean's picture

(post #43929, reply #68 of 266)

Attaboy, girl!!

Vedi, Vici, Velcro   I came, I saw, I stuck around.


http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

Vedi, Vici, Velcro   I came, I saw, I stuck around.

http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

MadMom's picture

(post #43929, reply #70 of 266)

Amen!  You should never avoid posting, when you can post this clearly.  I think the creationism/evolutionism argument is a smokescreen used by people to avoid taking their responsibilities for their fellow man seriously.  I understand there are over 3000 references in the Bible to caring for the poor and less fortunate, but that seems to be lost in this day of "personal responsibility" and arguments over how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.


I can remember as a small child going to Sunday School and being totally perplexed about Adam and Eve.  Where were the cavemen?  Where were the dinosaurs?  I don't think the answer is that early Christians put saddles on them.  I find nothing whatsoever incongruous about the idea that evolution exists and that we are the products of it, and the idea that there is also a higher power. 




Not One More Day!
Not One More Dime! Not One More Life! Not One More Lie!

End the Occupation of Iraq -- Bring the Troops Home Now!

And Take Care of Them When They Get Here!
shywoodlandcreature's picture

(post #43929, reply #72 of 266)

I remember asking about cavemen and dinosaurs in religious class when I was a kid. The answer: Well... after the Fall, people got stupider and animals got bigger and meaner.





"...very little has ever been accomplished by complacent people." Billmon


http://costofwar.com/

MadMom's picture

(post #43929, reply #73 of 266)

Guess those people (along with that nut who has the dinosaurs in saddles museum somewhere...is it Kansas?) never heard that the dinosaurs were extinct about a million years before humans arrived on the scene.  Of course, it could be that all science is wrong, that carbon dating is a fallacy, that layers of sediment have been manipulated, and that only the Bible, through its myriad translations, contains the truth.  Or, the truth could be that God created the heavens and the earth, but in His time, and in His way, and not in 7 days or 7 million days.  Nobody knows.  I prefer to believe something which makes sense.



Not One More Day!
Not One More Dime! Not One More Life! Not One More Lie!

End the Occupation of Iraq -- Bring the Troops Home Now!

And Take Care of Them When They Get Here!

Aberwacky's picture

(post #43929, reply #90 of 266)

I haven't been around much lately and it's, sadly, likely to stay that way


That's too bad, Steven.  I hope it's because of some wonderful, joyous new thing in your life and nothing negative.


Leigh


 


Just because your children were born in the South doesn't make them Southerners.  If a cat has kittens in the oven, does that make them biscuits?

"Happiness does not depend on outward things, but on the way we see them." 
-Leo Tolstoy
~~Jean's picture

(post #43929, reply #91 of 266)

What Leigh said, Steven.


But you couldn't resist coming back to kick just one more skunk, eh?


Vedi, Vici, Velcro   I came, I saw, I stuck around.


http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

Vedi, Vici, Velcro   I came, I saw, I stuck around.

http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/

StevenHB's picture

(post #43929, reply #92 of 266)

Thank you, both.  I'm just extraordinarily busy.


But I did think that I could drop by to kick-start an interesting discussion after being bombarded by the "debate" on this subject on NPR and in the news mags.




Without coffee, chocolate, and beer, in that order, life as we know it would not be possible


Edited 8/15/2005 4:39 pm ET by StevenHB

Without coffee, chocolate, and beer, in that order, life as we know it would not be possible
wisekaren's picture

(post #43929, reply #113 of 266)

shywoodlandcreature's picture

(post #43929, reply #114 of 266)

Love it! In fact, I might even convert.





"...very little has ever been accomplished by complacent people." Billmon


http://costofwar.com/

elizaram's picture

(post #43929, reply #115 of 266)

OMG, I have seen the light!! :-D


(The Wikipedia entry on FSMism adds the information that followers are referred to as "Pastafarians", and prayers are ended with "Ramen" rather than "Amen". Love it!)



When I was young, all my friends were imaginary. Now that I'm older, all my friends are virtual.

PeterDurand's picture

(post #43929, reply #116 of 266)

That is priceless! I am going to join. Why, you ask. To quote:

WHY YOU SHOULD CONVERT TO FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTERISM

* Flimsy moral standards.
* Every friday is a relgious holiday. If your work/school objects to that, demand your religious beliefs are respected and threaten to call the ACLU.
* Our heaven is WAY better. We've got a Stripper Factory AND a Beer Volcano.

Cheers, and thank you.

 

StevenHB's picture

(post #43929, reply #117 of 266)

That's great, Karen.  Thanks for sharing it.


Without coffee, chocolate, and beer, in that order, life as we know it would not be possible

Without coffee, chocolate, and beer, in that order, life as we know it would not be possible
Billll's picture

(post #43929, reply #118 of 266)

There must be a meat sauce somewhere---where did the DNA come from?--he may be the swimming  spaghetti  monster.  Thus another theory is born and must be added to the curriculum.