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Maedl's picture

Flu shots (post #53165)

I got my flu shot this morning--the regular immunization, not the one for H1N1. I asked about that, and the doctor said he wasn't recommending it because there were too many questions about its safety. I've heard the same thing from several other people who have recently gotten their regular shots.

What is the opinion of the H1N1 vaccine on the other side of the Atlantic?

Think I'll take an aspirin now--I got stuck twice, once for the flu and once for tetanus and diptheria. I know I'll have sore arms tomorrow!

Margie
Between the Alps and the Chesapeake Bay:
Where Food and Culture Intersect
www.alpsandbay.blogspot.com
Margie Between the Alps and the Chesapeake Bay: Where Food and Culture Intersect www.alpsandbay.blogspot.com
Gretchen's picture

(post #53165, reply #1 of 81)

There was an aritcle in out paper a few days ago that the "powers" are taking this very seriously and are going to attack those charges immediately. There is apparently nothing to uphold it. People are harking back to 1976 for when they last made a swine flu vaccine.

Gretchen

Gretchen
Maedl's picture

(post #53165, reply #8 of 81)

It's the medical community that are expressing the doubts about the H1N1 immunization here, which I find really interesting. The doc I spoke with today said he's heard a lot of uncertainty about the way the vaccine was developed. It will be really interesting to see how this develops.

Margie
Between the Alps and the Chesapeake Bay:
Where Food and Culture Intersect
www.alpsandbay.blogspot.com

Margie Between the Alps and the Chesapeake Bay: Where Food and Culture Intersect www.alpsandbay.blogspot.com
Gretchen's picture

(post #53165, reply #9 of 81)

Fine.  Our paper has reports of 2 more children's deaths from H1N1.

Gretchen

Gretchen
AnnL's picture

(post #53165, reply #12 of 81)

I don't think I'm eligible to get it.  From what I've heard it's children, younger adults, and seniors and caretakers of either of those.  A high school teenager just died from it here in Mass.  :-(

Ann
"The elders were wise.  They knew that man's heart, away from nature, becomes hard; they knew that lack of respect for growing, living things, soon led to lack of respect for humans, too."  Chief Luther Standing Bear, Lakota Sioux

Ann
"The elders were wise.  They knew that man's heart, away from nature, becomes hard; they knew that lack of respect for growing, living things, soon led to lack of respect for humans, too."  Chief Luther Standing Bear, Lakota Sioux

StevenHB's picture

(post #53165, reply #13 of 81)

But everyone can get the regular flu shot in MA at many CVS and Walgreens pharmacies (I got one at Walgreens over the weekend, for ~$15 with the AAA discount).



Maybe we'll find direction, around some corner, where it's been waiting to meet us.


Without coffee, chocolate, and beer, in that order, life as we know it would not be possible

Without coffee, chocolate, and beer, in that order, life as we know it would not be possible
AnnL's picture

(post #53165, reply #14 of 81)

I've never gotten the flu shot.  Maybe I should consider it this year....

Ann
"The elders were wise.  They knew that man's heart, away from nature, becomes hard; they knew that lack of respect for growing, living things, soon led to lack of respect for humans, too."  Chief Luther Standing Bear, Lakota Sioux

Ann
"The elders were wise.  They knew that man's heart, away from nature, becomes hard; they knew that lack of respect for growing, living things, soon led to lack of respect for humans, too."  Chief Luther Standing Bear, Lakota Sioux

StevenHB's picture

(post #53165, reply #15 of 81)

DD#1 has moderate asthma.  It's recommended that all family members get vaccinated to reduce the the likelihood that she gets exposed.  This year, her pediatrician's office called us to get her in for a shot.  This was unusual - usually we call them.


Maybe we'll find direction, around some corner, where it's been waiting to meet us.


Without coffee, chocolate, and beer, in that order, life as we know it would not be possible

Without coffee, chocolate, and beer, in that order, life as we know it would not be possible
AnnL's picture

(post #53165, reply #19 of 81)

Yes, with her asthma it's very important for her to  have the shot.  Everything I've read says that anyone with any kind of lung/breathing issues should have it.  Glad to hear your doctor's office is keeping up on this!

Ann
"The elders were wise.  They knew that man's heart, away from nature, becomes hard; they knew that lack of respect for growing, living things, soon led to lack of respect for humans, too."  Chief Luther Standing Bear, Lakota Sioux

Ann
"The elders were wise.  They knew that man's heart, away from nature, becomes hard; they knew that lack of respect for growing, living things, soon led to lack of respect for humans, too."  Chief Luther Standing Bear, Lakota Sioux

sally ryan's picture

(post #53165, reply #35 of 81)

I keep thinking about that Will Smith movie where they vaccinate everyone against cancer and they all become mutants!  I think I'll just keep washing my hands.


Yes I'm a worry wart and no, I'm not an engineer.

Florida2's picture

(post #53165, reply #36 of 81)

I think that was "I am Legend". I will take my chances with the vaccine, rather than with the flu :)

sally ryan's picture

(post #53165, reply #37 of 81)

I remember when they prescribed thalidomide for morning sickness.  How would you have liked to be part of that experiment?


Yes, that was the name of the movie, thanks!

Gary's picture

(post #53165, reply #38 of 81)

All drugs were an experiment at some point. That is why we have phase 1 clinical trials. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_trial#Phase_I ) It is impossible to guarantee what is safe in 1000 patients extrapolates to 1,000,000 patients. All drugs have side effects, some are peculiar to individuals. Repeat after me: all drugs have side effects. If you want to be rational about it, look at the odds of a serious drug adverse effect versus the odds of a serious disease adverse effect and make your decision. Most vaccines favor the drug by about 100,000 to 1. For example, the initial swine flu vaccine in 1976 produced the Guillain-Barré Syndrome at a rate of about 1 per million doses whereas the death rate from the flu was about 60,000 per million cases. Flu vaccines are much safer than those produced in 1976 because they are made differently.

The people who gave us golf and called it a game are the same people who gave us bag pipes and called it music and haggis and called it food.

AnnL's picture

(post #53165, reply #39 of 81)

Yes, I'll take the 1 in a million chance any day!  :-)

Ann
"The elders were wise.  They knew that man's heart, away from nature, becomes hard; they knew that lack of respect for growing, living things, soon led to lack of respect for humans, too."  Chief Luther Standing Bear, Lakota Sioux

Ann
"The elders were wise.  They knew that man's heart, away from nature, becomes hard; they knew that lack of respect for growing, living things, soon led to lack of respect for humans, too."  Chief Luther Standing Bear, Lakota Sioux

Gretchen's picture

(post #53165, reply #40 of 81)

What Gary says is SO true. That is why drugs are submitted to followup statistical studies by consultants (DS's FIL does MANY) and while the drug is safe in the first 10.000 of the drug trial, when you get 10 heart attacks when you survey 1 million, the drug may be recalled. THEN everyone gets on the big bandwagon that a drug was released that is dangerous. BS.


And the one in a million chance is just great, UNLESS you become the one in 30,000 that die.  And also don't figure into the vaccinated population that is counted upon to make the vaccine efficable for the larger populace.


Gretchen
Gretchen
SallyBR1's picture

(post #53165, reply #41 of 81)

Beware: long post about vaccines.

We often hear statements of people saying they got the flu after taking the vaccine, implying that the vaccine made them sick. This is simply impossible. Vaccines can be made in several different ways. First of all you can kill the agent that causes the disease either by heat or by chemicals such as formalin and inject that into the person. There are vaccines made in this way, for the most part they are quite nasty - the current typhoid fever vaccine is an example, it is only administered to folks in the army who travel to endemic regions. THe side effects are horrible, but if you need it, you take it.

There are vaccines made from what is called an "attenuated strain" - the BCG vaccine against tuberculosis is the classical example - that strain of Mycobacterium tuberculosis was grown in the laboratory for years and years, resulting in a strain that lost its ability to cause disease, but, having all its other traits unchanged (surface components, and ability to stay in your body for long enough to induce immunity), it was very effective in protecting against tuberculosis. Still, because the reason for its attenuation was unknown, scientists kept trying to build a better vaccine strain to replace it. Normally, live vaccines are better than inactivated vaccines, because they induce protection that lasts for much longer time.

As research on immunology progressed and our understanding of how pathogens cause disease also increased, it became clear that for some pathogens you don't need to use the whole agent to induce immunity. Let's take the influenza virus, for instance. Viruses are very "simple" structures compared to bacteria or parasites. They need to enter our cells to replicate, and do so by first attaching to some receptor outside our cells. In the case of influenza, they are coated in the outside by a protein called hemagglutinin (HA) - hemagglutinin is the protein that binds to receptors in our cells, and initiates viral entry. Without it, the virus cannot function.

let's suppose that we purify HA and inject it into a human being - HA will generate antibodies that recognize it. What that means is that antibodies will bind to hemagglutinin pretty much like a key recognizes a specific lock.

once you are immunized by the purified protein, if the real virus enters your system, your cells will produce a huge amount of antibodies which will now bind to the virus, preventing it from attaching to your cells. Imagine that the key (HA) has a bunch of rubber beads stuck all over, it cannot fit into the lock (your cell receptors) anymore. You become immune to the disease.

Influenza virus has the ability to keep changing its "coat protein" composition, escaping immunity induced by former strains. That is the reason why there are new epidemics every few years. But once you analyze the composition of hemagglutinin of a new strain, it is possible to produce an efficient vaccine reasonably quickly.

all this to say - it is IMPOSSIBLE to get the flu by getting vaccinated. If you ever hear anyone saying it, please do your best to clarify the issue.

 
 
American Citizen, with a tropical twist...
(May 29th, 2009)

 
 
http://bewitchingkitchen.wordpress.com


Edited 10/4/2009 8:27 am by SallyBR1

StevenHB's picture

(post #53165, reply #42 of 81)

Thanks, Sally, for the information about vaccine types.


(Forgive me for latching onto a incidental point in your post) FWIW, there is an oral typhoid vaccine whose side-effects aren't as nasty as the injection that military used in the past and may still use for all I know.  I took the oral vaccine in preparation for a trip to India.  It gave me the symptoms of morning sickness - mild nausea until I had something to eat in the morning.



Maybe we'll find direction, around some corner, where it's been waiting to meet us.


Without coffee, chocolate, and beer, in that order, life as we know it would not be possible

Without coffee, chocolate, and beer, in that order, life as we know it would not be possible
SallyBR1's picture

(post #53165, reply #43 of 81)

Yeap... I forgot about that one!

when I first started working with S.typhi vaccines, that one was not approved yet, but it's been more than 20 years... I'm getting old :-(

 


 


American Citizen, with a tropical twist...


(May 29th, 2009)

 


 


http://bewitchingkitchen.wordpress.com

StevenHB's picture

(post #53165, reply #48 of 81)

I'm getting old :-(


There is an alternative to getting older but it's really drastic and, possibly, irreversible.  One person allegedly reversed the condition but that is subject to significant controversy and the literature is incompletely accepted by the community.



Maybe we'll find direction, around some corner, where it's been waiting to meet us.


Without coffee, chocolate, and beer, in that order, life as we know it would not be possible

Without coffee, chocolate, and beer, in that order, life as we know it would not be possible
AnnL's picture

(post #53165, reply #49 of 81)

Hee.  :-)


Ann
"The elders were wise.  They knew that man's heart, away from nature, becomes hard; they knew that lack of respect for growing, living things, soon led to lack of respect for humans, too."  Chief Luther Standing Bear, Lakota Sioux

Ann
"The elders were wise.  They knew that man's heart, away from nature, becomes hard; they knew that lack of respect for growing, living things, soon led to lack of respect for humans, too."  Chief Luther Standing Bear, Lakota Sioux

Carole4's picture

(post #53165, reply #44 of 81)

Thank you, Sally. Great information.

sally ryan's picture

(post #53165, reply #45 of 81)

Gary, I don't have to "repeat" anything after you!  Who do you think you're talking to?

MadMom's picture

(post #53165, reply #46 of 81)

Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?  I think Gary was making a point, to all of us, that ALL drugs have side effects.  This even includes OTC drugs.  Now, the side effects may be minimal and they may be rare, but they are there.  You know what?  If you don't want to take any vaccines, that's fine with me; just stay away from me, my kids, and my grandkids. 



Not One More Day!
Not One More Dime! Not One More Life! Not One More Lie!

End the Occupation of Iraq -- Bring the Troops Home Now!

And Take Care of Them When They Get Here!

Gretchen's picture

(post #53165, reply #47 of 81)

You seemed to be very much saying that the vaccine isn't safe (I'll keep washing my hands) , nor are a lot of drugs that are recommended and later found to have some DRASTIC side effects (thalidomide). 


SO I guess maybe Gary was talking to you about some realistic facts about drugs.


I took some drug while pregnant (not thalidomide) that later was shown to cause birth effects. I felt VERY lucky when I heard about it 20 years later.


Gretchen
Gretchen
tiramisu's picture

(post #53165, reply #50 of 81)

Sally (and Gary too), I love you guys. Your explanations and input are always so helpful. You take time to clarify these things and it is very much appreciated.

Aberwacky's picture

(post #53165, reply #51 of 81)

Thanks, Sally.


I was actually talking to someone about this today, and convined them (they have young kids) to get the shot.  They were concerned they could still get the flu after getting the shot, and I told them a simplified version of your post.


Leigh


 


"Happiness does not depend on outward things, but on the way we see them."
-Leo Tolstoy
"Happiness does not depend on outward things, but on the way we see them." 
-Leo Tolstoy
shar999's picture

(post #53165, reply #52 of 81)

From what I am reading this vaccine has only been tested for 2 weeks.


It actually is not the vaccine that I am worred about the the other things in the injection.  Can someone clarify?

Aberwacky's picture

(post #53165, reply #53 of 81)

I think it's the same base as the regular flu vaccine. What part are you worried about?

"Happiness does not depend on outward things, but on the way we see them."
-Leo Tolstoy

"Happiness does not depend on outward things, but on the way we see them." 
-Leo Tolstoy
kathymcmo's picture

(post #53165, reply #54 of 81)

It's been in trials for several months, not 2 weeks. The only reason any trial was done was to ascertain how long it takes for the immune protection to develop. The trials showed that happens much faster than originally thought, so only one dose is needed.


The regular (seasonal) flu vaccines are not even put through clinical trials because the same basic "ingredients" are used every year and the vaccine is just tweaked to target the strains of flu circulating in the Southern Hemisphere during our summer. It would be impossible to design and enroll a trial before the flu season hits, and then results wouldn't be available until the following year, but would be pointless because by then other strains would be circulating.


In reality, the flu vaccines have been given to millions and millions and millions of people for the last several decades, so there's far more real-world data on their effects than any clinical trial can possibly provide.


If you're worried about thimerosal, there are versions available without it.

Gary's picture

(post #53165, reply #55 of 81)

H1N1 is just another variation of the Influenza A virus. We see these variations every year and that's why the vaccine from one year is not applicable the next year. The process for making this year's vaccine is the same as last year's; this process has been used for many years.

Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine, an inactivated influenza virus vaccine, for intramuscular use, is prepared from influenza viruses propagated in embryonated chicken eggs. The virus-containing allantoic fluid is harvested and inactivated with formaldehyde. Influenza virus is concentrated and purified in a linear sucrose density gradient solution using a continuous flow centrifuge. The virus is then chemically disrupted using a non-ionic surfactant, polyethylene glycol p-isooctylphenyl ether (Triton® X-100), producing a “split virus”. The split virus is further purified and then suspended in sodium phosphate-buffered isotonic sodium chloride solution.
Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine is formulated to contain 15 mcg hemagglutinin (HA) of influenza A/California/07/2009 (H1N1) v-like virus per 0.5 mL dose. Gelatin 0.05% is added as a stabilizer. Each 0.5 mL dose may contain residual amounts of formaldehyde (not more than 100 mcg), polyethylene glycol p-isooctylphenyl ether (not more than 0.02%), and sucrose (not more than 2.0%).
There is no thimerosal used in the manufacturing process of the single-dose presentations of Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine. The multi-dose presentation of Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine contains thimerosal, a mercury derivative, added as a preservative. Each 0.5 mL dose of the multidose presentation contains 25 mcg mercury.

The people who gave us golf and called it a game are the same people who gave us bag pipes and called it music and haggis and called it food.

The people who gave us golf and called it a game are the same people who gave us bag pipes and called it music and haggis and called it food.

shar999's picture

(post #53165, reply #57 of 81)

Mercury is what I question.  Maybe a small amount but when you have 3 shots is that dangerous?  Ever since the Autism issue with small children which questions the possibility of the merucy in vaccinations,  it is worrisome.  Some doctors agree and others don't.