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sub shiraz for cote du rhone?

leonap's picture

Ina's Beef Bourguignon calls for Cote du Rhone or Pinot Noir. I've got Shiraz. Would you use the Shiraz?

ICDOCEAN1's picture

(post #36666, reply #1 of 61)

leonap's picture

(post #36666, reply #2 of 61)

Thanks for the link. Obviously, I'm not a wine drinker. So while reading up on the different ones, I'll hit upon what I think is the answer, only to read what seems to be conflicting info on the same page. I would love a straight-forward reference geared for cooking with wine.

ETA: I don't mean to sound ungrateful. It just seems one needs to be a wine drinker for the articles to make sense. Then again, I am easily confused. ;-)


Edited 11/14/2008 9:57 am ET by leonap

roz's picture

(post #36666, reply #3 of 61)

There are wine experts on this site, and I am not one of them! LOL! I personally prefer to drink a cote du Rhone rather than a shiraz. You are asking, though, what to use for cooking a specific recipe. Use the shiraz, it's what you have. I find a shiraz a little too sweet for my taste, but in slow cooking your recipe, it might not make that much of a difference. Someone more knowledgeable might 'whine' about this advice!

Be impeccable with your word. Don't take anything personally. Don't make assumptions. Do your best. Don Miguel Ruiz
leonap's picture

(post #36666, reply #5 of 61)

Thanks, Roz. I'm sure I bought the Shiraz for general cooking (per CI). The Beef Bourguignon uses an entire bottle so I'll probably wait and buy a PN or CdR. Your comment that Shiraz is sweeter caught my attention. Though I haven't quite pinned it down, there are some instances where I can't stand sweetness in a savory dish (the one and only time I've cooked with port made me leery of using it again) yet there are savory dishes that include fruit that I love. Whasupwidat? I might figure it all out by the time I croak!

roz's picture

(post #36666, reply #6 of 61)

leona, my taste buds find shiraz sweet. Maybe others don't find it to be the case. I am not a shiraz fan.

Be impeccable with your word. Don't take anything personally. Don't make assumptions. Do your best. Don Miguel Ruiz
ashleyd's picture

(post #36666, reply #7 of 61)

Boeuf Bourgignon is, as its name suggests, a dish from Burgundy and the red wine of Burgundy is made from Pinot Noir which suits this dish as it is fruity and does not have high levels of tannin (the stuff that makes your lips pucker). However Cotes Du Rhone is OK because the grapes it is made from, mainly Grenache and Syrah also tend to be quite fruity and lower in tannins than, say, a Cabernet Sauvignon. The key word in there is Syrah, which as you will have found out from the link above is the same as Shiraz. In summary, use the Shiraz


Age is unimportant unless you’re a cheese.

Age is unimportant unless you’re a cheese.

BonnieinHolland's picture

(post #36666, reply #8 of 61)

I couldn't agree more -- nothing wrong with using the Shiraz instead of Cotes du Rhone for the reasons above.  cheers, Bonnie


Edited 11/14/2008 11:14 am ET by BonnieinHolland

leonap's picture

(post #36666, reply #10 of 61)

Thanks, Bonnie.

Glenys's picture

(post #36666, reply #11 of 61)

And a decent Syrah will come with less sticker shock than getting a Burgundy with enough personality to make the dish as it should be.

leonap's picture

(post #36666, reply #9 of 61)

Thanks, Ashley. Now that makes sense.

vjom's picture

(post #36666, reply #34 of 61)

I would use a Cotes-du-Rhone but certainly not a Shiraz from the new world because of the much higher alcohol content of these wines and hence the perceived increased fruitiness. Therefore if the choice is between a Shiraz and a Pinot Noir, I would use the Pinot Noir

Gretchen's picture

(post #36666, reply #35 of 61)

If we are talking about cooking with the red wine I would NEVER  use a pinot noir. That is the most ------- words escape me---wine.  Use almost anything.


WHAT dish requires the EXACT wine. I'm serious in asking. I think most of us can do what we have on hand. If it is super special, I'd do it --maybe.


Gretchen
Gretchen
vjom's picture

(post #36666, reply #38 of 61)

Sorry Gretchen, I agree with Ina. The recipe in question is for a beuf bourginion (sp) not a beef stew with red wine sauce. I last made on request of a number of friends a beuf bourginion and used a chateauneuf du pape - a wine of the Rhone region. My other choice for wine for this dish happened to be a crozes-hermitage, another wine of the region albeit from an area slightly further north. I have new world shiraz wines at home but as I live in a large urban area, going out to buy the appropriate wine was not an issue. However had I not been able to do this I would have used a pinot noir I had rather than a shiraz.

Gretchen's picture

(post #36666, reply #39 of 61)

Pinot noirs are so difficult to get that have enough body to them to stand up to a "stew" which is what a boef bourgignon is.  In France this is not true, but in the US to get a decent PN you will pay a lot. YOu can use a domestic cab and get enough for the stew.


If you have a hearty PN at less that $20 (I HATE//wOULD not  use anything approaching that for a braise myself) please share.


I would not equate a Cotes du Rhone with a Chateau-neuf-du-pape, no matter that they "come from the same place". I have actually been there (done that?).


Gretchen
Gretchen
shoechick's picture

(post #36666, reply #40 of 61)

As have I.  What do you think their major differences are?  A Chateauneuf de Pape is a Cote du Rhone.


The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.  ~St. Augustine


Edited 11/15/2008 9:44 pm by Shoechick

The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.  ~St. Augustine

BonnieinHolland's picture

(post #36666, reply #41 of 61)

Chateauneuf du Pape is a specified geographic area, with specific regulations for grape growing and wine production.  Cotes du Rhone is its own specified geographic area with specific regulations.  Two separate areas and wines, albeit they are close to each other and use some of the same grapes in their blend.  Chateauneuf du Pape is at a much higher quality level than Cotes du Rhone.  On the 'which wine to use' debate, I agree that the proper wine for a boeuf bourgignon is pinot noir - that's traditional, after all.  But am not so rigid that a shiraz couldn't be substituted.  As long as there's the realization that the dish has become something other than a classic boeuf bourgignon.  cheers, Bonnie

shoechick's picture

(post #36666, reply #42 of 61)

Châteauneuf du Pape wine information

The Châteauneuf du Pape is the most famous Côtes du Rhône wine. The "Coteaux" (slope) of Châteauneuf du Pape is between Orange and Avignon cities, in one of the most beautiful landscapes of Provence. The Popes used to have their summer residence there in Châteauneuf du Pape (Pope in french).



The Cote du Rhone is a very diverse wine region producing some very different wines from two distinctive viticulture areas.  These being the North of the Rhone that is dominated by the syrah grapes and produces some fine examples of full bodied red wines, to the South where you will find grenache and Chateauneuf du Pape and exquisite white wines of condrieu and Chateau Grillet.

And here's a map....


http://www.terroir-france.com/wine/cdr_map_south.htm


 






The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.  ~St. Augustine


Edited 11/16/2008 12:20 am by Shoechick

The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.  ~St. Augustine

BonnieinHolland's picture

(post #36666, reply #44 of 61)

What that website is calling and showing as the 'cotes du rhone' is actually the Southern Rhone -- even though that term is sometimes used for the whole region (north and south Rhone valley).  What 'Cote du Rhone' actually refers to is one specific appelation controlee wine within the Southern Rhone.  Within the Southern Rhone, there are a variety of appelation controlee wines.  These include Chateauneuf du Pape, Cotes du Rhone, Cotes du Rhone Villages, Cote de Ventoux, Cote du Tricastin, Cote du Luberon, Vacqueyras (a former Cote du Rhone Villages before it was promoted to its own appelation) and Gigondas (also a former Cotes du Rhone Villages), and a couple others.  The regulations and specified geographic areas are separate for each of these appelations.  That's why I say that Chateauneuf du Pape is not in fact a Cotes du Rhone.  On a bottle of Chateauneuf du Pape, you will see 'Appelation Chateauneuf du Pape Controlee' on the label and on a Cotes du Rhone, you will see 'Appelation Cotes du Rhone Controlee' and each wine will be made according to specified regulations in specified geographic regions, and will be very different from each other.  cheers, Bonnie


Edited 11/16/2008 6:38 am ET by BonnieinHolland

vjom's picture

(post #36666, reply #46 of 61)

But a Crozes-Hermitage, made with essentially the same grapes as Chateauneuf-du-Pape and in the same geographical (within reason) area and growing conditions (unlike shiraz wines of the new world which are grown in warmer climes and are more fruity and alcoholic), is a poor man's Chateauneuf-du-Pape and a more than appropriate substitute if you have difficulty using a Pinot Noir of the region because of cost.

Otherwise what you are making is a beef stew with red wine sauce with a garnish of mushrooms and small whole onions. And there is nothing wrong with making a beef stew with red wine sauce with these garnishes made with what ever red wine tickles your fancy.

I am not from the USofA and have available in my area Pinot Noirs of France for under $20.00 US.

BonnieinHolland's picture

(post #36666, reply #48 of 61)

A crozes-hermitage is 100% syrah and from the northern Rhone, which has a climate more in common with Burgundy (ie continental).  A Chateauneuf du Pape has the choice of 13 different grape varieties (one of which may be syrah, but this is not important, if used at all, because this area tends to be too warm for syrah's liking, in contrast to the Northern Rhone and its cooler temps which syrah likes -- for example, Beaucastel, which is one of the top Chateauneuf du Pape wines, uses mainly Grenache) to choose from and a climate more influenced by the Mediterranean.  So they are not from the same geographical area, nor of the same climate type, and they use different grapes. 


And, as I said, viom, I am not so rigid that I think that a beef stew has to be made with a particular sort of wine, but if you make a boeuf bourgignon from a wine other than a pinot noir, then it is not, per tradition, a boeuf bourgignon.  That was my only point there.  I too live outside the US and can easily buy a Burgundy (pinot noir) for less than 20 dollars US.  But then, as I think Glenys noted, it ain't gonna be very good in comparison to a New World alternative.


cheers, Bonnie


Edited 11/16/2008 12:52 pm ET by BonnieinHolland

shoechick's picture

(post #36666, reply #47 of 61)

Of course the regulations are different, but they could essentially use the same grapes.  Technically you could find the exact same blend in a cote du rhone that you could in a chateuneuf du pape, it's just three miles down the road.  As for the bottling, of course if you qualify for the CNDP on your label, you're going to use it.  And I stand by a Chateauneuf du Pape is an Appellation of Cote du Rhone. 


The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.  ~St. Augustine


Edited 11/16/2008 12:17 pm by Shoechick

The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.  ~St. Augustine

BonnieinHolland's picture

(post #36666, reply #49 of 61)

If you walk into Beaucastel and say they are an appellation of the Cotes du Rhone, then you will be politely (or maybe not) shown the door.  AC Cotes du Rhone may, but does not, use the same grapes as AC Chateauneuf du Pape.  They use cheaper grapes (hello, can we say cinsault and carignan?), cannot use the 13 varieties of grapes available to Chateauneuf du Pape, harvest cheaper, make their wines cheaper, produce wine at a regulated lower alcohol level, don't last as long, and are produced in a much huger area (to name a few things), and that's just some of the reasons you are going to pay a lot more for a Chateauneuf du Pape than a Cotes du Rhone.  cheers, Bonnie


Edited 11/16/2008 12:52 pm ET by BonnieinHolland

shoechick's picture

(post #36666, reply #50 of 61)

Bonnie, seriously, calm down.  We're going to have to agree to disagree on this.


 


The village and three other surrounding communes produce wine, and Châteauneuf-du-Pape is an AOC in the southern Rhône wine region. Unlike its northern Rhône neighbors, Châteauneuf-du-Pape permits thirteen different varieties of grape, and the blend is usually predominantly Grenache. Other red grapes include Cinsault, Counoise, Mourvèdre, Muscardin, Syrah, Terret Noir, and Vaccarèse. White grapes include Grenache Blanc, Bourboulenc, Clairette, Picardin, Roussanne, and Picpoul. In recent years the trend has been to include fewer, or even none, of the allowed white varieties, and rely heavily (or solely) upon the Grenache, Mourvedre, and Syrah. One may suspect that this is a response to international wine-market trends and the desire to have this sometimes-rustic wine appeal to a broader commercial audience.


Côtes du Rhône


At the generic level, the official AOC Côtes du Rhône region stretches 200 km from Vienne in the north to Avignon in the south and from the foothills of the Massif Central in the west to the fore-slopes of the Vaucluse and Luberon mountains east of the town of Orange. Red and rosé wines are made from Grenache Noir, Syrah, Cinsault, Carignane, Counoise and Mourvèdre grapes varieties. A maximum of 20% white varieties may be used in the rosés. With the exception of Northern wines using a majority of Syrah, all reds must contain a minimum of 40% Grenache to be blended into the Côtes du Rhône, and up to 5% of white grapes may be used.


The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.  ~St. Augustine

The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.  ~St. Augustine

thecooktoo's picture

(post #36666, reply #51 of 61)

Hey, calm down.  May I bring to your attention that Boeuf Bourguinon is BEEF STEW.  It's a country dish.  Use what wine you have.  The French use Pinot Noir because that's where the dish is from.  I guarantee you that if the dish was from some other region they would be using the wine from that region.


Quite frankly, unless I'm doing a large batch and need a whole bottle, I open the red that I want to drink next, or the one that I am drinking at that time.  I do try to avoid the heavy oaked CA reds because I don't like the way they reduce.  Have had great luck with inexpensive Malbecs from SA.  Rarely am I going to pay more than ten or twelve bucks for a wine to put in a braise.


Sorry, should have been addressed to all.


Jim


Edited 11/16/2008 3:10 pm ET by thecooktoo

Gretchen's picture

(post #36666, reply #52 of 61)

THANK YOU.  It doesnt' make it right but I do believe if you asked people what "boeuf bourgignon" is, it would be "beef stew made with red wine". If it  is de rigeur made with pinot noir, then so be it but I believe mine made with a different wine (that is better tasting in the US) will be a better dish.


AND so agree with you about the malbecs from Argentina. Been getting some VERY nice ones at TJ's, and Total Wine.


Your price point is mine--or a bit more!!


What is the BIG dish that uses a Barolo--man, expensive!!


Gretchen
Gretchen
shoechick's picture

(post #36666, reply #53 of 61)

Can you point out where I said not to use a Pinot Noir?  or actually where I even mentioned the recipe?  My post was to Gretchen when she said don't subsitute a Chateauneuf du Pape for a Cote du Rhone.  I never mentioned what wine the recipe should be made with.

The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.  ~St. Augustine

The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.  ~St. Augustine

thecooktoo's picture

(post #36666, reply #54 of 61)

Please read the last line of my post.  I did not intend for it to be addressed to you, but could not change it once posted.


As far as I'm concerned, red wine for stew is red wine for stew.


Jim

Gretchen's picture

(post #36666, reply #55 of 61)

I got to thinking about this and decided to look at my Julia Mastering.


To quote  "3C of a full-bodied young red wine such as those suggested for serving, or a Chianti"


Suggested for serving: beaujolais, Cotes du Rhone, Bordeaux-St.Emilion, or Burgundy.


Gretchen
Gretchen
roz's picture

(post #36666, reply #56 of 61)

Whoa! That is quite a taste difference...but maybe not so for long, slow braising!

Be impeccable with your word. Don't take anything personally. Don't make assumptions. Do your best. Don Miguel Ruiz
Lee's picture

(post #36666, reply #57 of 61)

I don't know how this thread became contentious.  Someone said a boeuf bourguignon isn't a true boeuf bourguignon unless it's made with a burgundy, which is technically  correct.  I never use burgundy because I like a heartier flavor and, IMO, putting a good burgundy into the pot is a waste (much better to drink it), so boeuf bourguignon becomes ragoût de boeuf au vin rouge in my kitchen.  Ce n' est pas un problème, n'est pas?  ;^)